How can you and Dave Ramsey be friends?

I know we Jews are taught tolerance, etc., but I’m curious about something. As you’ve probably heard, your friend Dave Ramsey signs off his radio show with “…there’s ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that’s to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.”

If I’m interpreting Dave correctly, he seems to be saying that the right way to live—in fact the only way—is as an Evangelical Christian. I’d be very interested in hearing about how you were able to forge a friendship with him, despite his position.

I know we can like someone without liking everything he does or says, but given your differences in religion and how fundamental faith is to each of you, hearing how you deal with this might help me in my own life.

Thanks very much!


A. N.

Dear A.N.,

You are asking a very important question whose answer is fundamental to how people of all religions live peacefully together in the United States.  Interestingly enough, it is in today’s non-religious and even aggressively secular environment of the universities and schools of academia that free speech and ideological latitude are sternly repressed.  By contrast, religiously committed Jews and Christians find themselves increasingly allied in facing common concerns.  This peaceful co-existence among people of different beliefs has been fundamental to America’s success and is today increasingly under assault by hard left groups as well as by many Moslems and others under the camouflage of “political correctness” . 

We’re going to make a guess that, like most Jews, you are fully aware of religious persecution that the Jewish people have endured over millennia. You are most likely well versed in the Roman conquest of Israel, our expulsion from England in 1290, the tortures inflicted on Jewish communities during the Crusades, our expulsion from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition, pogroms in Russia, and the more recent oppression and eventual expulsions of entire Jewish communities from many Moslem countries. These are just some instances of Jewish suffering over the ages because of our people’s refusal to betray its Jewish faith.

However, we would also guess that, like most Jews, you are far less aware of the European death toll  during years  persecution of Catholics by Protestants and Protestants by Catholics, of Huguenots being forced from their homes, of executions of Quakers in colonial America, of the persecution of the Latter Day Saint community in the 1800s in America and of continuing Christian persecution in some Moslem countries today.  We deplore the myopia of those who focus on the deaths of victims of religious battles while ignoring the vastly higher death toll of societies grounded in atheistic belief including that of the French Revolution, and Socialist and Communist societies. Such people will mistakenly conclude that religion must lead to bloodshed.

In reality, strong belief in anything, be it a god or an “ism,” can lead to bloodshed unless there is a stronger belief that places a premium on the sanctity of human life and in freedom of belief.  Despite pitfalls in the American experience, including those mentioned above, America has, for the most part, excelled in elevating freedom of religion as an ideal while at the same time recognizing that Judeo-Christian values in general underpinned American civilization.  That crucial  balance that has provided Jews their most tranquil and prosperous home in the past 2,000 years is now in peril as today’s dominant religion of secular fundamentalism demands obeisance and subservience by both Christianity and Judaism.

We do question your opening statement that Jews are taught tolerance. Our faith actually demands that we be highly intolerant of much behavior, including some of that which is commonplace in society today. What you might mean is that Jewish theology does not insist that Heaven or God’s favor is reserved exclusively for Jews. However, neither do we insist that all people must have similar theologies.

That was a long introduction to our answer. We are privileged to count many passionate Christians among our close friends and we daresay they cherish our relationship as much as we do. We have been honored to share meaningful time with great men like the late Zig Ziglar, Jerry Falwell, and Chuck Colson and to participate in important and heavily Christian-directed experiences such as the National Day of Prayer. This means that we have sat respectfully as friends bless their meal in the name of Jesus and have received many faith-themed Christmas letters. We have also been honored by our many Christian friends who have joined us for religious events such as Shabbat meals, our son’s bar-mitzvah and our daughters’ weddings.

Among those Christian friends are  some whose beliefs state that our refusal to accept Jesus prevents us from ever entering heaven.  (We don’t begin to know the theological variations among our friends’ denominations just as they would have trouble differentiating between Jewish denominations.)  Their believing that we are precluded from heaven in no way hurts us.

Similarly, there were periods when the Catholic church had both ecclesiastical and political authority in Europe and under that regime, certain Jewish texts were censored. Sentences that offended Catholics were removed and often books were burned. That does not happen in America. Our Christian friends never demand that we renounce passages that might contradict their theology. 

We do not need to understand or accept each other’s beliefs in order to understand or accept each other. We know that our lives can be enhanced by people who may believe differently from us.

We should all feel knowledgeably secure in our own convictions so that contradictory ideas do not threaten our faith. We need to share an ability to respect the statements and ideas of other people without demanding that they become exactly like us.  To circle back to your example of our friend, Dave Ramsey, we respect  his strong faith and thank God to be living in a country with a history and heritage that has him befriending and hiring people of all different religious backgrounds and cultures without needing to alter his beliefs in the slightest. Our respect for his beliefs and his respect for ours, is what allows us to meet in harmony and on equal footing as Americans and as human beings.


Rabbi Daniel and Susan Lapin

59 thoughts on “How can you and Dave Ramsey be friends?”

  1. Kent Jerome Nauman

    The people burning Jewish books also burnt the libraries of Alexandra, Carthage and many others for the purpose of memory bleaching and gaslighting. India and China also had extensive book burnings. They were Pagans, not really Christians.
    God bless you in the name of my Lord Jesus Christ Kent J. Nauman ex-MD (axis I schizophrenia (chronic))

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks Kent-
      Appreciate you writing. Barbarians always burn books. They also ban books with which they disagree and silence (sometimes permanently) those who stand up to them.
      (We routinely remove links in letters to us–Editor)

  2. I’m deeply curious, really, about how Jews do get to heaven. I really enjoy your podcasts and have several of your products. I’m about to admit there’s a lot that I don’t know but I know what I don’t know.

    So is the previous poster right, and if so can you add anything to fill us in on God’s covenant with the Jews?
    Thanks in advance!

    “As a Christian, our scriptures teach;
    1. The Jews are the elect of God and are under covenant with God Romans 11:27-29
    2. We as Gentiles owe our gift of salvation through Jesus by the Holy Spirit to the Jews. Romans 15:27

    Unfortunately many Christians do not know the scriptures and do not separate what is written for Jews and what is written for Gentiles. To say to a Jew who believes in Jesus as Messiah that he must forsake Moses is not scriptural in my bible. As a matter of fact, the Jewish believers in Jesus followed the Law of Moses even more zealously. Acts 21:20-26

    Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:17-18
    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Sorry for the length, just wanted to share a bit of my knowledge of Christianity. And these verses are not taken out of context of scripture as some like to do.”

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear Gene–
      To answer your question, by following the commandments. It really is pretty much as simple as that for Judaism. Except that following the commandments is far from simple. Don’t gossip; yes, that’s a commandment. Don’t even listen to gossip! And that’s just one of several hundred negative. Seize every opportunity to advance the interests of your brother. That’s one of another few hundred positive commandments. It’s quite a challenge. It can literally take a lifetime!

  3. As a psychologist, a Jewish person and an ardent Dave Ramsey fan, I have long enjoyed your guest appearances on his show. The respect you have for one another comes across so well even to the ear, that I imagine it’s that much stronger in real life. Thank you for posting the question and addressing it in the way you did. It has me thinking about quite a bit right now. And I imagine I’ll be considering your thoughts for quite a bit longer. 🙂

  4. “We should all feel knowledgeably secure in our own convictions so that contradictory ideas do not threaten our faith.”

    Good stuff!

  5. Isee that I have several typos in the above. Sorry – my old fingers do not dance across the keyboard like they used to

  6. “If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting, too:”
    So begins one of the most important pieces of english literature.for young men and women to learn.
    As upi know, the Poet goes on to discribe various situations and how a “Man” should respond to them.
    ” If you can wait and not be tired by waiting.
    or being lies about, don’t deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
    And yet don’t look too good or talk too wise.”
    Too often we “hate that which we do not understand, Lies become the common form of communication and the talking heads speak as if everyone who holds a different opinion is the scum from the bottom of the pool of humanity.
    : If you can hear the truth you’ve spoken
    Twisted by Knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you have given your life to, broken’
    And stoop and build ’em up again with worn out tools.

    Too often it becomes a contest of how loud can we misrepresent the opposition. Too often it maters not what the message is as long as you win, garnering the seed from the chaff and using that together with the wise counsel of those with with different experience and education and putting it all together for the good of all.

    “If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    Or walk with kings- nor lose the common touch,
    If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you .
    If all men can count with you, but none too much.

    Too often we hear only what we want to hear, and we give what we perceive the unwashed undereducated masses want instead of what they need to hear. Take the late election for a /senator from my home State of Alabama. The truth got lost on the way to the station and no one ever looked for it.
    My grandmother was an anti- semite. My Grandfather was a strong supporter of the founding of Israel and I have a plaque naming him a Hero of the Israeli State. My parents grew up in the racist South, but embraced all good men of whatever race and religion.
    It can be done, people can work together. There will be some outliers, but most can be brought together for the common good with common sense and purpose.

    God, whatever God you worship, created us all and set us up with a soul to protect, gave us an instruction book, anda created a wonderful garden for us to live in.
    A zealot is a zealot whether he be a Christian Evangelist, a Muslim Jihadist, or a Jewish Zionist.
    Kipling said in another poem,” Rosie O’Grady and the Colonel’s Lady are sisters under the skin,”
    I say, we are all brothers under the skin and we damn well need to start acting like it.
    When I look at you I do not know if you are Jewish or Catholic or Mormon, you are human and I owe you the duty of respect until you teach me otherwise.
    My dad taught me that how you treat others is not a reflection of what they are, but of what you are.
    I rambled along poorly again, my apologies.
    Please give Miss Susan my regards, and I hope for a prosperous, (Julian) New Year for you and your family. Fair tides and favourable breezes to you.
    Bill Brower

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks Bill
      We both greatly enjoyed your exposition on Rudyard Kipling’s If which we have taught to each of our seven children.

  7. As it is with many things between Jews and Christians we have much in common. This makes sense, of course, since Christianity was birthed from the Jewish faith. It also makes sense that many of the teachings in Christianity are based on the wisdom and truth found in the Torah. In this current world we are better together. The same evils attack us both, would it not make sense to use the same love and favor of our God to counter them together?

    Thank you Rabbi for filling in many blanks I had in the way I was taught. I never knew of the Talmud or anything in it. That alone has brought me new perspective on both faiths.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks for writing Richard–
      That is our point–the theologies may differ but the behavioral codes that emerged from them are very close. I can love those with different theologies as long as how we’ll interact with one another is utterly predictable and Divinely sanctioned. Regardless of how placid or attractive someone’s theology may be, if his practice is to cut off the heads of those who don’t share his belief, there is little common ground.

  8. Well written, as usual! I just wanted to mention that in our (Christians’) New Testament Paul writes in his letter to the Romans, chapter 11, that ‘and so all Israel will be saved…’ It doesn’t give us the criteria, or how or when. We don’t need to know the details. But it is written. And I believe. I am appalled at how many Christians are not familiar with this chapter. We all need to read the Bible. Daily. May His will be done. In all things.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear Karla–
      We could hardly agree more with you that we all need to read/study the Bible. Our ministry has long been dedicated to making ancient Jewish wisdom accessible to everyone.

  9. WOW…Way to not mail it in… Take a tough question and actually answer it and publish it. That takes some courage. Sorry to tell you but you would not make a good politician (looter). Thank God…

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear Bob–
      Although in one context or another, I’ve heard it often, this is the first time I have really enjoyed being told that I wouldn’t be any good at something.

  10. Thank you Rabbi for using the word harmony! If I could convince my friends, some of whom are political, some of whom are Christian, and some of whom are Jewish that unity is the result of harmony I would be a very happy camper! When unity is pursued (we must all think, act, vote alike) we have more disunity than before we started. When we let each other be ourselves (a drum is a drum, a flute is a flute, etc) we can produce beautiful music together.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks Gerry–
      And such a beautiful way of putting it. You’re right. They quest for ‘unity’ is illusional. In fact it can only be achieved as the consequence of doing right things as you describe.

  11. Thank you, Rabbi Lapin. This is one of the clearest, most illuminating, informative, thought provoking, helpful, and wise short pieces of yours that I’ve ever read. It seems especially useful now, when there is such a disturbing trend to polarization and intolerance to even DISCUSS any views or beliefs except one’s own. I have lost several friends in recent years because they cannot accept that my views on some issues are not the same as theirs. A very good and old friend of mine has had the same thing happen to him. One of his “friends” told him that he is now “suspect.”

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear Mark–
      Thank you for your encouraging words. You’ve lost some friends because of divergent beliefs? As Rick in Casablanca said, “I’m shocked”. Well, I have too! As the famous poet Bill Clinton frequently said, “I feel your pain”. You see, Jews and Christians just do have virtually the same religious code of interpersonal behavior. I can (and do) more easily befriend a Bible-believing Christian than a secular atheist Jew. Also important that you do not disagree on major fundamentals in interpersonal behavior. If you believe that non-Christians should get beheaded, that would be kinda major.

  12. lol If you are Jewish and want to focus solely on the acceptance of Jesus as a person’s personal Lord and savior as the path to heaven while still alive, you might not want to. Only the mentally disturbed Christians still believe this in regards to a Jew. I’m a little rusty, one would have to check the Bible but The way the scriptures were written it is possible that God leaves the Jewish people a way in, one way or the other. Like I said, I’d have to go back and check. But, that’s just within the narrow scope of just focusing on the scriptures in Christianity it’s self.

    However the other side of it is that unless they believe in “replacement theology”, the Jewish people are held with a sense of respect among Christians like myself because we are aware that our personal lord and savior was Jewish and that is the people, religion and culture that he came from. Some even prefer to call him by his Jewish name, Yeshua.

    Many things within Christianity have changed. If it had not, we would still be stuck with Jews receiving foul treatment from my fellow Christians similar to the dark times around the Medieval period. Also it would mean that the Southeastern United States would not be the safety net for the Jewish people like the good Rabbi Lapin stated once. These days, you might not believe in Yeshua but Jews are treated like a sibling, they mess with one, especially around me, they might want to run. Just thinking about one being messed with is enough to start to make me boil.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear SM–
      Thanks for writing.
      What I said exactly, and which you correctly paraphrased, was “America’s Bible belt is Jews’ safety belt”.

  13. rocky knickerbocker

    Thank You for this look at one of life’s challenges. I as a Lutheran Church goer find some of my friends in more Evangelical churches to have the same ‘my way or the highway’ attitude. You are my Rabbi…rocky

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks for writing Rocky–
      Don’t make the mistake of tarring an entire group (Evangelical churches) because of some of your friends. We are grateful to have more friends than we can count at some of America’s most wonderful Evangelical churches. The same goes for other churches and many synagogues. And, of course, there are the few people whose conduct we deplore.

  14. I was introduced to the wisdom of Dave Ramsey when I was attending Pastor Gary Simon’s High Point Church in Arlington TX.
    A few years later, because I moved away, I began attending a different church where I was then introduced to you. It was at this time that I took you up on your offer because you then became ‘My Rabbi’.
    The new church I went to, where I attend to this day, is the DFW New Beginnings Church led by Pastors Larry and Tiz Huch.
    I want you to know that I truly cherish your visits to our church.
    I also want you to know that I also love your answer to the posed question, I find it not only profound but also extremely sincere.
    I am not only debt free (praise God!) because of following Dave Ramsey’s advice, but I am also deeply connected to my Jewish Roots because of my Pastors.
    I thank God all the time that my path led me to them and subsequently to you. Your teachings have had a huge impact on my life.
    So much so, in fact, that I want you to know that a few years ago I wrote a book called ‘Driving Faith’ and you, among a few other luminaries in my life, are fully listed on my dedication page.
    I expressed this to you once in person, but I am embarrassed to say that I became a little tongue tied and may have botched what I was trying to tell to you. lol.
    (Turns out I tend to express myself better as a writer than as a speaker, go figure). lol.
    In any case, I remain deeply grateful to you for your work and your wisdom.
    In faith,
    Gabriel Perez.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear Gabriel–
      So we didn’t meet on any of the occasions when I spoke for Pastor Gary Simons’ High Point Church? But I do remember you from Pastor Larry and Tiz Huch’s great New Beginnings Church which I so enjoy visiting.
      Well done on following Dave’s teaching so effectively

  15. Rabbi Lapin, Tears welled up in my eyes as I read your answer . Profound wisdom!
    I own a business in the U.K. and we have people who work with us from 85 different nations. They represent various faiths and some do not believe in God and yet we all choose to accept & respect each other.
    Your teachings have helped our team to understand why Jewish people prosper disproportionately to other groups of people. They have all decided to use these same ancient Jewish ,biblical principles & are prospering in business and in life.
    Thank you for your friendship, wise counsel and materials.
    I am so glad that 10 years ago I ordered every single resource you have on your website! It has helped us to be more accepting of others and to become a living example of how so many different people can all be friends !

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      My dear Jeff–
      In your kind letter, you tastefully refrain from mentioning our close personal friendship over many years so I particularly appreciate your encouraging words. I know your UK business (for which I have been a guest speaker) and am an enormous admirer of how you created it, how you conduct it, and how you impart the crucial values into people from so many diverse backgrounds. You are truly bringing financial stability to huge numbers of people.
      Thank you for the many kindnesses you have bestowed upon Susan and me and we eagerly anticipate seeing you soon in Philadelphia.

  16. As a Christian, our scriptures teach;
    1. The Jews are the elect of God and are under covenant with God Romans 11:27-29
    2. We as Gentiles owe our gift of salvation through Jesus by the Holy Spirit to the Jews. Romans 15:27

    Unfortunately many Christians do not know the scriptures and do not separate what is written for Jews and what is written for Gentiles. To say to a Jew who believes in Jesus as Messiah that he must forsake Moses is not scriptural in my bible. As a matter of fact, the Jewish believers in Jesus followed the Law of Moses even more zealously. Acts 21:20-26

    Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:17-18
    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Sorry for the length, just wanted to share a bit of my knowledge of Christianity. And these verses are not taken out of context of scripture as some like to do.

  17. This was a good, thoughtful and real response. Far too often in this generation is the prevailing attitude one which believes because you have a different view from me, you are always wrong no matter the issue, you are the problem, or the cause of the magnitude of ills the world has seen since the Fall AND as a result we can never work together no matter how good the cause.

    The reality is we do live in a world with people of different views. Does that mean I can never work with anyone peacefully who is a force for good unless they believe 100% of everything I believe? Sadly we are seeing more and more good people without the strength of conviction in themselves fall prey to this line of thought.

    Mr. Ramsey is no more responsible for the inquisition, as any child of Judah alive today was responsible for the wickedness in Jerusalem before the Babylonians attacked millennia ago.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Good point, NS–
      But though I can certainly work peacefully with those whose belief systems are different from mine, if those belief systems encourage violent and anti-social conduct towards those who are not devotees of that belief system, then I can most decidedly not work peacefully with them. The whole point is that Judaism and Christianity’s Bible-based value system encourages almost identical standards of ethics and conduct in all interpersonal relationships. That is what makes it all possible.

  18. I agree with your answer to the above question. I am a Christian with a deep love for the Jewish people. I personally do not have difficulty with this issue. Jews and Christians believe in the one true God. His ways are beyond our understanding and as one Rabbi said God left some “wonder” the people. We are not meant to know everything. His plan is perfect and all we need to do is trust and have faith.

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Dear Maria–
      You sound like a really nice person and we feel blessed to have you as a reader of our work.

  19. Rabbi, I am incredibly thankful to have had the opportunity to experience so much of your material, and through that I have seen you exemplify these principles you have written in this article. I deeply respect and admire both you and Dave Ramsey and because of your relationship with Mr. Ramsey I have begun a truly meaningful friendship with a coworker of what I would consider a different faith. It has been so rewarding to open my eyes. Thank you so much for what you do.

    1. I have been struggling with my friendship with a woman who is a wiccan. I find alot of things to disagree with. I am having trouble finding common ground with her. I am disturbed by her altar and witchcraft.

      1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

        Well, dear Karen,
        How shockingly narrow-minded and bigoted! Next thing you’ll tell me you’re disturbed by her sacrificing a sheep in her back yard, and who knows, after that you’ll go all soft and start feeling disturbed by those who behead others with whom they disagree.
        The whole reason we can feel so close to Dave Ramsey and hundreds of other Christian friends is precisely because although our theology differs, our Bible-based value system about how to relate to our fellow humans is almost identical. This is not true for everybody’s value system. Of course there is little common ground with a wiccan! Apart from anything else, feasance to that non-religion suggest mild detachment from reality if you’ll pardon me being so judgemental.

        1. Dear Rabbi,
          I am really surprise by your harsh response. You read too much into my comment. I have been friends with this woman for years. I don’t hate this woman but love her enough to know she is meddling in stuff that is not good. God warns us in the Bible about witchcraft and seeking mediums. This is where my concern lies. I am not narrow minded but I am concerned. I am a Christian and she is a wiccan. We had many interesting conversations. However, I would never participate in any of her rituals.

          I have listen to everyone of your podcasts and I have valued your insights.

          1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

            You misunderstood me, dear Karen,
            It was my poor attempt at sarcasm. Of course I wasn’t really suggesting that you are narrow minded or bigoted! God forbid! No, I was jokingly commenting on how politically incorrect (institutional cowardice) it is to criticize any belief system.
            I apologize for causing you unnecessary dismay.
            Wishing you a lovely 2018

    2. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks for writing Glenn–
      We appreciate you employing our resources to enhance your life. Hope all goes well in 2018

  20. Joseph William Ivan

    Enjoyed reading your response to the question.
    Sometimes enlightenment does lead to understanding…. Common ground can be found if sought…. It is always easier to look at what we do not agree with than to choose to explore why not to be….
    Understanding of differences need not exclude anyone, based on beliefs… I think I may have lost my way in what I was attempting to say…
    I do look forward to your emails…
    I just watched you and your wife, with my wife Holly, about the wool and linen passage in the Bible….
    Thank You both for your TV programs….
    Joe W. Ivan, Berea Ohio

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thank you Karl–
      We try to express ourselves in ways that appeal to both the heart and the brain, though we succeed only seldom.

  21. Truly a thoughtful and inspiring answer for all Americans! Oh, that we would choose to live practicing such Godly wisdom. Thank you both.

  22. What an excellent answer to a difficult question. Thank you for taking the time to unpack it so thoroughly. As a Christian myself, and as someone who views the toxicity on social media with more than a little concern, I have found myself struggling with some version of this question on more than one occasion. It’s a question that can be more broadly applied to any number of ‘worldview’ positions (political, sports, fandoms, social issues, etc.), but the answer you provide (respect and appreciation, or what used to be recognized as ‘common decency’) is equally applicable across that same spectrum.

    God bless you and yours into 2018!

    1. Rabbi Daniel Lapin

      Thanks for writing Eric–
      Yes, as long as there is some level of agreement on the basics of human interaction. If you love baseball and another not only loves football but believes that baseball followers should be beheaded, there really isn’t much basis for sociable interaction.
      A wonderful 2018 for you

      1. Our society should be secular. No religion should be pushed in governmental institutions, such as education, our courts and even on our money. Our money would be better served if it said..”In ourselves we trust”. Promote self confidence, not unproven fairy tales. By the way , IKE changed that. Our founding fathers did not have promotion of religion in our institutions. If one is truly secure about their beliefs, they would not need to push it on others anyway.

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